Updated: Apr 18, 2020
Advocating for yourself can be hard. This week Lori Rosoloswky of Open Sky Artists and I discuss the challenges of getting fair compensation, especially as women in the arts, and why it's so much easier to advocate for others than for ourselves.
2:32 - Lori shares her untold story of getting shot down the first time she asked for a raise, and how that affected her sense of self-worth.
12:33 - Adrienne shares *her* untold story of being asked by a boss "What do you REALLY want to do?" and having to confront the true answer.
16:59 - Why it's so much easier to advocate for, and negotiate on behalf of, someone other than ourselves.
23:05 - How to deal with push-back on compensation in client negotiations and stay grounded in your worthiness.
31:36 - Handling the haters is a lifelong battle, but you've got this.
Adrienne MacIain 0:39
Hi everyone, I am here with the amazing Lori Rosolowsky. She is the founder and CEO of Open Sky Artists. Welcome, Lori.
Lori Rosolowsky 1:12
Adrienne MacIain 1:14
Is there anything else you'd like the audience to know about you before we begin?
Lori Rosolowsky 1:18
No, they're gonna find out everything in a minute!
Adrienne MacIain 1:21
Fantastic. I love it. The best answer. All right, so let's just jump right in. Obviously, I'm kind of the story midwife, and I'm here to help you tell a story that you've felt blocked on. So, what's your story?
Lori Rosolowsky 1:36
Well, there's so many, but I think one that really calls to me started about 22 years ago when I was working as an environmental consultant in corporate America.
Adrienne MacIain 1:49
Oh my. I'm sure there are many stories from that era.
Lori Rosolowsky 1:52
Oh yeah, don't we all have tons? The reason this one jumps out at me is because I didn't even realize it was a story I had until about 20 years later.
Adrienne MacIain 1:53
Lori Rosolowsky 1:55
When it was one of those. "Oh my, that explains so many of the hurdles that have kept me from going forward."
Adrienne MacIain 2:14
Lori Rosolowsky 2:15
And so that's why I think it's an important story to tell because I think if at the time I had been able to process it, then I wouldn't have been blocked so many other times.
Adrienne MacIain 2:26
Lori Rosolowsky 2:27
So, should I dive in and talk about it?
Adrienne MacIain 2:30
Yeah. Where does it start for you?
Lori Rosolowsky 2:32
Okay, so I was I got a PhD in a scientific field, in Pharmacology, in 1991, six weeks before I was going to be 30. And about two to three years into working for an environmental consulting firm in Princeton, I was having my performance review, and my boss--I mean, to my knowledge, I got a good performance review. And then when I had done some research with a colleague of mine who had the same degree as I did, and similar experience and she said, you know, Lori, we are not getting compensated within the salary range that is standard for our field.
Adrienne MacIain 3:17
Lori Rosolowsky 3:17
So I had the guts to mention that. And that took guts for me because talking about money and advocating about money for myself, very difficult.
Adrienne MacIain 3:28
Lori Rosolowsky 3:29
So I thanked him for the review. And then I said, so-and-so and I were researching the salary ranges and it looks like I'm a little below the range. And he instantly replied back, "Oh, you're lucky you're getting what you're getting. I had to really advocate for you with the other principals in the firm." And that immediately shut me down. And I didn't have the wherewithal to say, "Hmm, that's weird because I just thought you thought I'm doing a pretty good job. So tell me more about why you had to really advocate for whatever raise or whatever I was getting." And, and instead that subconsciously sent a message to me, which is when it's difficult for me, which is when you ask for more money, you get your hand slapped.
Adrienne MacIain 4:24
Lori Rosolowsky 4:25
And honestly, this was so long ago, we're talking 20 plus years ago, that I don't remember exactly how I reacted in that period. But all I can tell you is that as my journey of the last 20, 25 years has evolved, and my feelings about money have evolved, I... it was just a few years ago that I had that aha moment that was like, "Oh! That may be one of the reasons I have problems advocating for money." And just as a quick aside, I was the kind of person I'm sure so many of your listeners are: we're trying to do it all. We're trying to have great careers, we're trying to be spouses, we're trying to be parents. And the idea of being a good worker and being a mom was very difficult for me to wrap myself around because I didn't know how to do anything less than 150%, and I was scared to death that once I became a mom, I wouldn't be able to do my job well. But when that maternal alarm clock started banging at age 32, and my husband and I made the decision that we would try to become parents. So as soon as, in my... with this same boss, as soon as I got to pass my first trimester and I had the nerve again, it took guts to walk in and tell him that I was-- that my husband and I were delighted that, you know, I was pregnant. He said, "My condolences."
Adrienne MacIain 6:15
*gasp* You're kidding!
Lori Rosolowsky 6:16
No. And, again, I didn't--this is 1993. So this is way before the workplace had standards like, you don't say that, HR will kick you out if you say that, right? There was no awareness of that. So again, it was like, "Oh, no, it's true. My career...." I mean, I spent six years in grad school in science and environmental science to... here it is, "Oh, no, it is over. Oh, no, what am I going to do?" So again, these are things that I did not consciously process. I didn't have names for like, you can't do that. That's harassment. I don't know what it is. But even if it's not illegal, it's being a jerk. And it certainly fed into my insecurities of how am I going to do it. And so and ultimately, four and a half years into that job, I left it, and my parting words to my boss, who was a different guy. And again, totally not aware of work-family balance, completely clueless. I said, "Look, I'm a wife, a mom of a two and a half year old, and I work here, and the only one that can wait is working here, because I will lose my marriage, and my toddler's growing up." I mean, and the good thing about that is that horrible choice that my company gave me by making it so hard for me to stay, and I was *such* a good worker. But they made it so difficult that they forced me out of a situation that wasn't ideal. And that led me to pivot back to what had always been a passion: music.
Adrienne MacIain 8:03
Lori Rosolowsky 8:03
But it wasn't something that I could pay the bills with. And you know, and that was a super scary decision to jump off and do the mommy track thing.
Adrienne MacIain 8:15
Yeah. It's always very scary. Going outside the box, trying something new, trying something without, a regular paycheck, without a guarantee: very scary.
Lori Rosolowsky 8:27
And so that happened in 1996. And our son, Kurt, was two and a half. And so then I said, "Oh, I want to study classical piano again. So I'll teach." I taught so at least I can pay for my lessons. But sure I'm leaving a real paycheck with benefits in the whole nine yards and becoming dependent on my husband. And that scared me. Big time. So but it turned out to be the best thing ever. Because now for the last 20 some years. I have been--again, a million different turns and twists--but I have been finding my way in what is my wheelhouse, what is my zone of genius, etc.
Adrienne MacIain 9:10
Yeah, that's great.
Lori Rosolowsky 9:12
So that's where that story began.
Adrienne MacIain 9:15
It's funny, isn't it? How the universe pushes us when we're not ready to take that leap. Letting us know, no, actually, you *are* ready. You gotta go.
Lori Rosolowsky 9:26
Adrienne MacIain 9:27
I've seen this over and over again, that circumstances was actually the thing that pushed us to do the thing that we really wanted to do. Because it's just so scary to say, "Hey, I'm going to leave this sure thing. I'm going to leave this steady paycheck. I'm going to leave these, you know, take off the golden handcuffs and step out into the unknown. Almost nobody does that.
Lori Rosolowsky 9:50
Adrienne MacIain 9:50
It's almost always when circumstances force us that we then figure out "What do I really want to do?"
Lori Rosolowsky 9:58
Right, exactly. One of my mantras has become when things are tolerable you tolerate them and when they're miserable, you change.
Adrienne MacIain 10:08
Yeah. That's very true.
Lori Rosolowsky 10:09
And I've said that so many times and it doesn't matter where you are--relationship, job, where you live, you know, because tolerating stuff is definitely tolerable.
Adrienne MacIain 10:23
Lori Rosolowsky 10:24
It's, it's tolerable, so it's less scary and you can do it.
Adrienne MacIain 10:29
Lori Rosolowsky 10:29
But as soon as that last thing happens, that last straw, where you realize you're at the fork in the road, and then you know, it's scary but you do it and usually you... you might fall down but you can pick yourself up. And for us, the fork in the road was almost literal. I had stayed at work. It was a 45 minute commute. I'd stayed there till 10pm one night finishing something and then 2am the next night. This is 45 minutes from our home, on country roads. This is before cellphones were what everyone had. I think I had one. But it wasn't there. They weren't attached to our hands then; this is 1996. My husband went out in the middle of the night looking for me in the car, wondering if I had hit a deer and crashed into a tree.
Adrienne MacIain 11:23
Right. And in Montana, that's a that's a real concern.
Lori Rosolowsky 11:26
Well, actually, this was Pennsylvania at the time.
Adrienne MacIain 11:30
Oh. But still rural.
Lori Rosolowsky 11:31
But it was country roads. And the thing was, I got home that night, and, or morning, whatever it was, and he, I think I said, "I think I'm going to resign." And he said, "I'll believe it when I see it," because he knew how dedicated I was. I mean, he knew it wasn't like "Oh sure, I'll just do something else." But you know, I did it. And that was, and then I stayed for 10 more weeks, finished up my projects. Interestingly, the company at that point said, Oh, we love you so much. "Don't resign, just take a leave of absence. So if you change your mind, you can come back and we won't have to onboard you again." And I was like, "Sure, sure, whatever." But I knew I was done. And that opened the door to what I've done for the last 20 some years. And that's in the arts. Yeah.
Adrienne MacIain 12:28
Lori Rosolowsky 12:29
Adrienne MacIain 12:29
So can I tell you a quick story? We'll get back to your story, I promise.
Lori Rosolowsky 12:33
Adrienne MacIain 12:33
You reminded me of something when you were talking about the performance review. So, just before I was let go at Qualtrics, I had a performance review with Webb Stevens, and he's a wonderful man. And he had asked me in that performance review, "What do you really want to do?" And it was kind of a loaded question, because it had become pretty obvious that this was not really a good fit: I was wasn't really happy there, they weren't really happy with me. I was not the detail-oriented, you know, assistant that they really needed me to be. And so he asked me, "What do you really want to do?" And I thought about it and I said, "Oh, I don't know, maybe something in HR, maybe something in... recruitment, you know, I could be a recruiter. And he kind of gave me this look, and he goes, "You seem like more of a creative type to me." And that was like, on the one hand, it felt like permission and like he had finally-- someone had seen me, you know, and acknowledged like: you're a creative type, you should be doing something creative. But at the same time, it felt kind of like scary and insulting, like, you know, you should be doing something NOT at this company. Do know what I mean? Like: you should be doing something else entirely. And I was like scared by that notion. But I kept thinking about it, and I kept thinking about it, and it like haunted me in the back of my mind. What do you really want to do. You're a creative type. And when it finally came time and they said, you know, you know, here's your, what do they say? Like it's a, you know, two weeks? They give you the poison apple choice, which is you can take the two weeks of trying to do exactly what we tell you to do, and come up to speed, or you can take two weeks of, you know, compensation and go find something else.
Lori Rosolowsky 14:29
Adrienne MacIain 14:30
You always take the compensation by the way. Always take the parachute.
Lori Rosolowsky 14:34
Yes. All two weeks of it.
Adrienne MacIain 14:38
Exactly, exactly. Enjoy your two weeks. But, but it was that phrase that came back to me in that moment, and I actually was really relieved. And I was really excited all of a sudden, because I realized that this was him and, you know, the universe through him, saying: "It's time. You're ready. You don't have to try to fit yourself into a box that doesn't really fit you and try to keep this nine to five thing going. Step out. Take a risk." And it was terrifying, of course. It always is.
Lori Rosolowsky 15:17
Adrienne MacIain 15:18
But man, I am so glad I did. Like, I sit there and I think sometimes about like, "Oh my gosh, if I had to be like planning someone's travel right now. If I had to be, you know, dealing with somebody else's like cluster calendar, like, Oh my gosh. And I get to spend all day writing, and all day talking to amazing, brilliant people like you about their stories! Like what is my life? It's magical.
Lori Rosolowsky 15:48
Adrienne MacIain 15:49
Yeah. So the next question for you: How did that story change you? How did that experience change you?
Lori Rosolowsky 15:58
So what happened was, I went from being a piano teacher again, to starting to perform again. Classical, which was my background. To becoming a singer-songwriter, to then becoming a jazz pianist and then doing more shows and doing Broadway stuff, show tunes. And through all that, first I was probably on my own and just having to negotiate the hundred bucks, if I was lucky, for a performance. And then as I got into jazz, I ended up leading a jazz quartet that and because of my personality, I was the outward facing one who after the gig would shake the hand, give the business card, hope to get someone else interested in us. My sax player, dear friend, was my right hand man. He was great on the behind-the-scenes office computer website stuff.
Adrienne MacIain 16:58
Oh bless them.
Lori Rosolowsky 16:59
Yes. And so we were really perfectly matched because it was so much easier to ask for money when there were three other people besides me to advocate for. Fascinating that I wasn't shy when it was our minimum price is this, because I knew I couldn't turn around and say, "Hey guys, we can each have a pizza. That's what I negotiated." So it was so easy to negotiate for other people. And since I was part of the package, it wasn't I-I-I. It was we. So that helped me pivot towards learning how to ask for compensation. When we moved from Pennsylvania to Montana, about three and a half years ago, and for a lot of reasons, I decided to open this company which champions performers, advocates for them, as well as the institutions that rely on them and really, our whole goal is to foster win-win partnerships. And also do all that work that it takes to market yourself. And so, because of that, my job is to advocate for other people's interests. And so, again, I can't remember what triggered the memories of what that boss had said to me 20-some years ago, but that was when I realized, "Oh my gosh, these messages that I had not internalized. No wonder I have trouble." And it's not surprising to me that I don't have trouble asking for other people because I, I love people and I just want them to succeed. And so it's easy to ask for something for a client or a friend. And because the only person--
Adrienne MacIain 18:49
SO much easier.
Lori Rosolowsky 18:49
Right?? And I mean if the if the venue or the hiring person says "No, we only have this," it's fine. You don't take it personally. It's not about you and usually it just never seems to be about our client anyway, it's just here's our budget or
Adrienne MacIain 19:06
Lori Rosolowsky 19:07
But when it's you...
Adrienne MacIain 19:09
It feels so personal.
Lori Rosolowsky 19:11
Yeah, and you want to just go, "Welll, okay, I guess I could do it for nothing." [laughter] So that story has helped me understand where my difficulties have come from. And it's not the only message about money that has kept me back. But if there's one thing that I have learned, it's that I want... I tell younger people, you know, time is not a renewable resource, and luckily, younger people, in theory, have more time. None of us is guaranteed anything, and money is a renewable resource and granted, it can be in very short supply at critical times. But if you step back the way you described after processing what your boss was saying to you about you being creative, you know, if you could rewind the clock and say, "Wow, what financial risks could I have taken that might have gotten me to where I want to be more quickly? You know, because if you if you have some kind of safety net, who knows, you know, a loan from a family member or whatever, you know, if you do this, are you going to lose your home? Or you're just not going to take that vacation? You know, what is it? And I think until really recently, I pretended like time was less valuable than money. And the older you get, that time thing becomes more prominent as a limited resource.
Adrienne MacIain 20:57
Well, and also, the more money you get, the more you realize that really, it was always about time. It was always just about getting that financial freedom to spend your time the way you really want to spend it. And so if you can change that attitude from the beginning, and recognize that money is simply a means to an end to get more quality time, you can do much better for yourself.
Lori Rosolowsky 21:23
Exactly. And when I first started Open Sky Artists, in addition to having billing models that were just literally paying with dollars, I had a bartering component in there that was very prominent. And my language on my website had lots to talk about the fact that the currency for the arts is not dollars. Because how do you measure what happens when you perform in a dementia unit for 50 bucks and the adult child of the mom with dementia is told by the caretakers, "Your mom had a great day today because this these musicians came in." How do you measure that? Quantify that? You can't. And because artists don't get paid the same way that pro basketball players get paid--I mean, just as I could rant on about childcare and public school teachers and everything else--but it's a different form of currency. And so I wanted to say, look: you design logos, great. You need a concert from me, I need a logo. Let's trade. And that can work. But obviously, you not every person you interact with has something that you can exchange.
Adrienne MacIain 22:42
Right. And at a certain point, you've kind of got your thing and you don't necessarily need as much help and... yeah, I get you.
Lori Rosolowsky 22:50
Yeah, and also, if you have staff, which I do, you can't pay them in bartering.
Adrienne MacIain 22:56
Lori Rosolowsky 22:57
But the concept is still valid.
Adrienne MacIain 23:01
Absolutely, yeah. Who do you think needs to hear this story?
Lori Rosolowsky 23:05
Well, I think every single person who is questioning their value, or isn't questioning their value, and then has it questioned by an external source, needs to sit back and go, "Wait. What part of that is valid? Do I need to step up my game? Did I not deliver? Did I give 36 hours of value and I'm paid for 40? Or? Because I believe in, you know, personal responsibility. But not automatically accepting what someone says when they criticize your value. And it could be... in my conversation with that boss, it could have been that that was his knee jerk reaction so that he wouldn't have to defend the salary that I was given. And it might have nothing to do with my value. But if someone is 25, 35, whatever, listening to this and saying, whatever setting they're in, and it could be, it could be in a household task between husband and wife or partners of some sort. You know, when you're getting criticized about your value, have a good talk about what part of this is really about you and what's about me, and let's figure out where the sticking point is. So I think, you know, taking it away from money, it's really about your self worth, what you deserve, what you need to bring to the table, so that you can say I've done my best. And the other person can say, "I know you have, and this is all we have to give you now, but this is how we're going to value you another way." And sometimes it's just hearing, we love you and we would pay twice as much, give you two times as much vacation, whatever. We would if we could, and we will when we can.
Adrienne MacIain 25:12
Yeah. It really is all about that acknowledgement. And the thing is.... So, another little story that I'm going to throw in here. This happened to me recently. Sometimes, it really is about money. And it's a situation where I had a client, and he hired me to do a sales page for him. I wrote the sales page. He wasn't thrilled with it. And I felt disappointed in myself, because I thought, "Oh, I worked really hard to bring value to this guy. I did a bunch of research. I really thought I had brought him a great product, but he didn't like it." Disappointing. And then he said, "Well, do you do other things? Maybe sales page is just not your thing. And I said yes, I'm really more of a, you know, long form, content person. And so we talked for a while about different kinds of long form content that would be valuable for him. And we settled on an ebook. I was going to write him this ebook. And it took me a week, I did a ton of research. I did actual interviews with people in this space, the real estate space. And I was super excited about it. I knew it was great value, I showed it to some of my real estate agent friends, they were like, "Wow, this is amazing, great work!" And then he completely ghosted me, and he never paid for it. And so I realized that he was just-- and he then he said, "Oh, I still want you to write that sales page." So I realized the whole time he was just trying to get free work out of me. And he had said he didn't like the sales page just to take me down a peg. So that I would feel like I had to make it up to him. It was a psychological game that he played, and I fell for it. And so this is an important lesson for me, but for everybody who's listening right now. Yes, sometimes when people say they didn't like something, it's not just it's not because they didn't like it, it's because they're playing a game, and they're trying to mess with you. And you got to have that really strong sense of your worth. And you've got to have that strong sense of "I know I brought you value. So if you don't like it, that's okay. I want you to get what you want. So go find it. But it doesn't have to come from me. If you're not happy with my work, we don't need to continue to waste each other's time by working together."
Lori Rosolowsky 27:25
So walk me through, if you had realized that at that moment, how you would have dealt with the payment.
Adrienne MacIain 27:33
Right. So if I had had my wits about me, what I would have said is, if you still want to work with me, then I think from now on, we're going to need an upfront payment system, where you put a deposit on whatever work that you would like me to do, because I want to make sure that you're getting the work that you're happy with and so you won't pay me the whole thing until it's done. But I need to make sure that because I'm putting this much work into it, and I'm prioritizing this over other clients, I need to make sure that I'm getting compensated fairly. And that's what I should have done.
Lori Rosolowsky 28:08
Yeah. So I made an interesting mistake. Different from that, but some similar threads. About four or five months ago, a potential client and I were in some deep conversations, and we had three hour-long phone calls. And through those calls, I indicated to her that one thing that makes Open Sky Artists different is that we are committed to integrity and transparency. And that is my defining--integrity and excellence--bottom line. And in fact, sometimes I joke that if it doesn't have integrity, it can't be excellent. So you know, you can produce a Pulitzer Prize winning book, but if you treat your people terribly, I'm sorry. There's a disconnect for me. So anyway, those are my defining values. Anyway. So she, you know, got to really like me and we got pretty deep in the weeds of what she wanted. So then she said, "Okay, so give me a proposal." And instead of just giving a proposal, and sinking a couple more hours into it so maybe I'm up to five, six hours of my time, I instead started kind of doing the work, not actually finding the leads I was thinking about, but thinking super deeply about: This is our strategy. And long story short, I gave it to her. The proposal. The price to do it right was much more than I think I'd thrown out without thinking, oh, maybe $500 we could do this but when I actually said, "Okay, we're gonna do this, this and this, it's going to be $1,200. So she sees it, she has sticker shock. And she goes, "I thought you said it'd be a few hundred dollars. Oh, and by the way, I forgot that I have somebody I brought in and this is the kind of work she should probably be doing for me." So it's a little bit like, okay, that is really not right. And you spent three hours on the phone with me. But the lesson that I learned and she scolded me, I felt like my hand was really slapped. She said, "You speak about integrity and transparency and all that stuff. But then you're now expecting me to pay it" because I said, "Okay, I get it. This is more than you want to spend it. You want to give the work to your in house person. But this has value. I just gave you the roadmap. I just gave you this whole strategy document. Would you be willing to pay me something for that?" She went through the roof and thought that and had no integrity and transparency and I instantly retreated and said "Look, I was just asking." But the lesson I learned was, and you did too, is don't go too far before you're clear on your internal milestones, deliveries, and payment. And don't-- because it's my tendency, probably yours, to over-deliver.
Adrienne MacIain 31:12
Lori Rosolowsky 31:14
Adrienne MacIain 31:14
Give, give, give, give give. And then yeah, that's something that we could have been giving to someone who really was going to value it and give us what we deserved. So yeah. Alright, let's get back to the questions here. What do you think is the main message? What do you want people to walk away from this story with?
Lori Rosolowsky 31:36
That you are going to run into naysayers your whole life.
Adrienne MacIain 31:42
Lori Rosolowsky 31:44
Expect it. You might not expect it from the person at the time for the product in that situation. But when it happens, go "Oh, okay. Huh. It's happening." Take a breath. If you don't have to respond immediately, don't. Email's easy, don't reply and hit send. In person? Take a step back, say, "Hmm, let me process that." You know, that's hard, it takes a lot of discipline because they're right in there and you want to say "What? Oh, gosh, I sent my heart and soul into this!" But process it and then look at it objectively and then step outside yourself. And if you were counseling your best friend, or your child, or your students, or another loved one, look at it from their point of view and say, you know what your work was excellent. For some reason he doesn't like it. Let's evaluate if you missed the mark. Let's evaluate if you could have delivered the moon and he would never be satisfied and look at what the expectations were. And if you take yourself out of the picture, then that makes it so much easier. And you need a breath to do that, because when it happens, you just want to punch right back. Or cry. So yeah, to summarize, it would be: expect that you will not be valued, even when you've given it your very best. Know that you can learn from every thing. And sometimes, even if you've given it your very best, it could be better. So use that and say, "Thanks for that. I'm going to give you draft two, hang on." And then when you get pushback that's not pleasant, take a breath and step outside yourself. And what would you say if you were advocating for someone that you love most in the world?
Adrienne MacIain 33:48
Right. That's great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you want the audience to know?
Lori Rosolowsky 33:55
Just that... Well, first of all, thanks for this opportunity to chat with you. It's been such a great connection that we've just developed over the last month or two. And that I'm really excited that my company, Open Sky Artists, we've only been around for three years and the growth that we're experiencing in our commitment to being able to champion anyone in the creative world who needs a support system. I just want to say
Adrienne MacIain 34:24
I mean who doesn't?? Come on. Who doesn't need a support system, who doesn't need an advocate? You know, as a creative type, I can say, there are things we're really really good at. But there's a bunch of stuff that we're NOT. And it's okay. We're not designed to be good at everything.
Lori Rosolowsky 34:45
No. And if you actually it gives me great joy that I have people that I can actually pay money to so they can do their zone of genius. It gives me so much pride to fully pay other people and it just relieves me of stuff I suck at. And so that alone, and I guess I just like to think of what we're doing is the pit crew to people who are racecar drivers because we all get flat tires and we all need a shot of gas. And you know, just that it's such a cool thing to be able to do for people, and I love learning about their projects and their needs, because it expands what I know about the artistic field in general and it just gives me such joy to help other people get to where they want to go and do what they love. So I can handle the rest.
Adrienne MacIain 35:46
And I can personally vouch that Lori is awesome at what she does because she is my accountability buddy. And man, does she keep me accountable.
Lori Rosolowsky 35:54
Right back at ya! Well thank you so much for this opportunity.
Adrienne MacIain 36:01
Thank you so much for being here. It's been great.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai